Curse

Coast · Aug 01, 2011, 09:31 AM // 09:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swingline

But this is not the way to solve the problem with interruption, it is a band-aid and the live team does not like band-aids. Therefore the best approach is to look at the skills that interrupt and make the appropriate changes.

Anet does use band-aids tho, that's why this might be implented!

Swingline · Aug 01, 2011, 09:50 PM // 21:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by lursey

why is this a band-aid, if it promotes skillful play?

This doesnt promote skillful play. This idea is simply shifting skill requirement to the rupter and it would be a quick fix(like a band aid) to the problem that rupts are too OP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lursey

so is the fluxes system a band-aid?

Yes, PvP now has a wound that will never heal, so the best thing to do is keep it triaged with fluxes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coast

Anet does use band-aids tho, that's why this might be implented!

I never said that they didn't use them but that they don't like to and that they seek to make the changes so the band-aid can be removed. They only use perma band-aids if it is not possible to fix the problem like PvP balance. This however can be fixed with anets limited resources by nerfing interrupts to decrease the sheer number of them or numbing the effects they have.

The GWs skill casting system is realism at work. Say you have a generator(energy bar) and you about to power your home with it through a cable(skill casting bar) but someone cuts that cable(interrupt) before any energy reaches the home. That energy doesn't return to the generator but it simply is passed on to the surroundings.

lursey · Aug 01, 2011, 11:40 PM // 23:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swingline

This doesnt promote skillful play. This idea is simply shifting skill requirement to the rupter and it would be a quick fix(like a band aid) to the problem that rupts are too OP.

Yes, PvP now has a wound that will never heal, so the best thing to do is keep it triaged with fluxes.

I never said that they didn't use them but that they don't like to and that they seek to make the changes so the band-aid can be removed. They only use perma band-aids if it is not possible to fix the problem like PvP balance. This however can be fixed with anets limited resources by nerfing interrupts to decrease the sheer number of them or numbing the effects they have.

The GWs skill casting system is realism at work. Say you have a generator(energy bar) and you about to power your home with it through a cable(skill casting bar) but someone cuts that cable(interrupt) before any energy reaches the home. That energy doesn't return to the generator but it simply is passed on to the surroundings.

1) not just only to the interrupter, it is providing every player has a chance to use skill cancel more, there is lot of other utilization of skill cancelling.. say for example if there is a sudden change of mind casting a spirit in an area, to do a fake cancel cast spike, to gain mobility.. the extra usability provide by skill cancel gives more dynamics to pvp.. thats what pvp need most..skillful play actions....not c spacing... spamming....something you need to think to use beforehand.. but now that option is not viable due to high cost......

2) so they use, but don't like to use.... even so.. skill cancel is not just a band-aid... it is also an extra button to promote dynamics to pvp.... with an extra "band-aid" effect you may call it to reducing the overpower of interruption.

3) exactly the case, if you have a second thought of not using any appliance at your home, cutting the power cable...would not affect any power consumption...it is not like, once interrupted, your mana will never get regeneration...your example only assume continue supply of energy to your skill casting, but they are energy denial skills that you are actually illustrating, and the fact is energy supplies to your casting only when you use a skill(skill casting)..

interrupt it is not a total denial of energy, but a denial of skill..so the compromised version of 50% en return is a better option when you skill cancel.

Reikai · Aug 02, 2011, 12:50 AM // 00:50

heres how to fix interrupts.

1.) Increase all interrupts to 1 min, give or take, recharge times. Would depend specifically on the skill itself.

2.) remove skill cancelling from the game.

Bu Bu
Counterspell

Counter target spell.

live with it.

lursey · Aug 02, 2011, 01:00 AM // 01:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reikai

heres how to fix interrupts.

1.) Increase all interrupts to 1 min, give or take, recharge times. Would depend specifically on the skill itself.

2.) remove skill cancelling from the game.

Bu Bu
Counterspell

Counter target spell.

live with it.

but the different is GW is real time, not turn base like MTG...

The Drunkard · Aug 02, 2011, 07:11 AM // 07:11

Unfortunately for this suggestion to be implemented Anet would have to change the relationship between skills and energy to either:

A- Make skills deduct energy after they've been successfully casted.
B- Refund energy for cancelled spells

If the first idea were to be implemented, you would start to run into problems with e denial functionally-wise. For example, what were to happen if a warrior with 5 energy used seeking blade at the time a Mesmer used e surge?

If the second idea were to be implemented, edenial wouldn't be a viable tactic anymore, as a monk or a caster could just sit on a 10-15e spell and spams cancel action. Furthermore, I'm not exactly sure it is possible to implement this idea, as cancel action acts as a self-interrupt.

Logistics aside, increasing the viability of cancel-casting as a tactic decreases the viability of baiting interrupts with other skills as a tactical option.

Personally I would prefer the viability of baiting spells and focus on the real issue of interrupts- the unneeded PvP mesmer buffs.

/notsigned

lursey · Aug 02, 2011, 08:15 AM // 08:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Drunkard

Unfortunately for this suggestion to be implemented Anet would have to change the relationship between skills and energy to either:

A- Make skills deduct energy after they've been successfully casted.
B- Refund energy for cancelled spells

If the first idea were to be implemented, you would start to run into problems with e denial functionally-wise. For example, what were to happen if a warrior with 5 energy used seeking blade at the time a Mesmer used e surge?

If the second idea were to be implemented, edenial wouldn't be a viable tactic anymore, as a monk or a caster could just sit on a 10-15e spell and spams cancel action. Furthermore, I'm not exactly sure it is possible to implement this idea, as cancel action acts as a self-interrupt.

Logistics aside, increasing the viability of cancel-casting as a tactic decreases the viability of baiting interrupts with other skills as a tactical option.

Personally I would prefer the viability of baiting spells and focus on the real issue of interrupts- the unneeded PvP mesmer buffs.

/notsigned

therefore return 50% is a better go..

passing on to your 2nd idea.. if you cancel cast sitting on 10-15.. and returning 5 each time .. it is still not viable for you to keep cancel casting, even so if you stand there keep cancel casting..... a warrior can butt on you, which is not a good option for standing strategy and encouraging players to move more than just standing there to keep casting/cancelling skills...

regarding baiting with other skills, when interruption is only optional, bringing baiting skills will become an obligation, that is like.. forcing other to bring patient spirits or 1/4 casting time spell just because someone may bring that interruption.. orison of healing or other 1 sec+ casting will become obsolete, and prompting to argument of ping issues that is not really a fairness in the sense of competition when connectivity is so relied on...

moreover, baiting as a tactical option does not look like skill cancelling that doesn't rely on skill bar, anti interruption, when your skills bar has no room for baiting, is not as good as skill cancel in terms of dynamics of competitiveness.

Besides, you can still use the baiting tactics, it won't decrease its viability even if skill cancel becomes more viable, as one relies on 8 skills, the other one relies on esc key, they both can co-exist....

Hence, I thinking promoting another player skillful cast cancel action which return a percentage of en is better than just focusing on interruption skills...though interruption has problem in itself it needs to be looked at altogether.

HigherMinion · Aug 02, 2011, 08:28 AM // 08:28

Interrupts are key to most pressure teams. They're not OP, they're just a key element in PvP. You need good reflexes or luck to hit those 1/4 spells or anticipate when they'll trigger, so the reward of downtime or +dmg is worth it.

lursey · Aug 02, 2011, 08:33 AM // 08:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

Interrupts are key to most pressure teams. They're not OP, they're just a key element in PvP. You need good reflexes or luck to hit those 1/4 spells or anticipate when they'll trigger, so the reward of downtime or +dmg is worth it.

but because of that requirement of haste reflex and anticipation, it prompts to ping issues, which makes it unfairly overpowered

Reikai · Aug 02, 2011, 09:21 AM // 09:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by lursey

but because of that requirement of haste reflex and anticipation, it prompts to ping issues, which makes if unfairly overpowered

you're seriously going to make the argument that good ping is unfair?

lursey · Aug 02, 2011, 09:28 AM // 09:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reikai

you're seriously going to make the argument that good ping is unfair?

good ping of course is unfair, if the skill is relying on that 1/4-1/8 casting time reflection..

if you have 300ms-500ms, you can never play mesmer because of that...

is not like patient spirit, which the casting time doesn't really matter if there is no interruption

Reikai · Aug 02, 2011, 09:29 AM // 09:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by lursey

passing on to your 2nd idea.. if you cancel cast sitting on 10-15.. and returning 5 each time .. it is still not viable for you to keep cancel casting, even so if you stand there keep cancel casting..... a warrior can butt on you, which is not a good option for standing strategy and encouraging players to move more than just standing there to keep casting/cancelling skills...

If you cancel casts that cost 10-15 and get back 5, in essence, losing 5, why can't you just cancel with a 5e skill in the first place?

2.) If an interrupter is watching you, then siad warrior can butt the interrupter as well.

Quote:

regarding baiting with other skills, when interruption is only optional, bringing baiting skills will become an obligation, that is like.. forcing other to bring patient spirits or 1/4 casting time spell just because someone may bring that interruption.. orison of healing or other 1 sec+ casting will become obsolete, and prompting to argument of ping issues that is not really a fairness in the sense of competition when connectivity is so relied on...

Interrupt skills are optional. Baiting skills are also optional. Infact, putting anything in those 8 skill slots of yours is optional.

Ping in any competitive setting is important. If you are seriously trying to say to balance the game around people with bad ping, then I have nothing else to say.

Quote:

moreover, baiting as a tactical option does not look like skill cancelling that doesn't rely on skill bar, anti interruption, when your skills bar has no room for baiting, is not as good as skill cancel in terms of dynamics of competitiveness.

If your skill bar has no room for baiting, then you suffer from the consequences of bringing no baiting skills. Thats it. Thats like saying "My skill bar had no room for aegis, so all monks should get aegis as a 9'th skill because it promotes tactics as to when the opposing team can spike."

Quote:

Originally Posted by lursey

good ping of course is unfair, if the skill is relying on that 1/4-1/8 casting time reflection..

if you have 300ms-500ms, you can never play mesmer because of that.

No. Bad ping is disadvantageous. Decent ping is a given. Any and all competitive online games are balanced with 0 and/or close to LAN-type situations as it provides a control.

lursey · Aug 02, 2011, 09:44 AM // 09:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reikai

If you cancel casts that cost 10-15 and get back 5, in essence, losing 5, why can't you just cancel with a 5e skill in the first place?

2.) If an interrupter is watching you, then siad warrior can butt the interrupter as well.

Interrupt skills are optional. Baiting skills are also optional. Infact, putting anything in those 8 skill slots of yours is optional.

Ping in any competitive setting is important. If you are seriously trying to say to balance the game around people with bad ping, then I have nothing else to say.

If your skill bar has no room for baiting, then you suffer from the consequences of bringing no baiting skills. Thats it. Thats like saying "My skill bar had no room for aegis, so all monks should get aegis as a 9'th skill because it promotes tactics as to when the opposing team can spike."

No. Bad ping is disadvantageous. Decent ping is a given. Any and all competitive online games are balanced with 0 and/or close to LAN-type situations as it provides a control.

1) so you are actually forcing other people to bring more 5e skills, but not other skills that can be viable..

2) if an interrupter is watching you.. you ask warrior only to butt the interrupt, what happen if you don't have the warrior...??

3) skills on your bar are optional, only the esc key is out of the skill bar, that makes the difference.

4) ping is important, but if a game only let player to play competitively in a low ping say perhaps 5ms to become competitive, then it is actually limiting the competitiveness, comparing 300-500 ms , and a 5 ms, mesmer...and if you say, then don't use interrupt.. meaning.. you are excluding part of the world to play mesmer, lead to lower population.....so skill infuse heal or interruption with fast casting time should be balance more on a average to high ping

5) is not just because of bringing anti skill so to promotes esc cancel skill, esc skill cancelling, has more other dynamics factor that can give to gw pvp, but the idea of bringing other anti skill, is not a dynamic factor that promote extra skill play which doesn't rely on skill bar.

6) gw war is competitive, but not a lan game, like sc, player can't play gw through lan.. so it is where it becomes limiting to the population...

Reikai · Aug 02, 2011, 09:56 AM // 09:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by lursey

1) so you are actually forcing other people to bring more 5e skills, but not other skills that can be viable..

2) if an interrupter is watching you.. you ask warrior only to butt the interrupt, what happen if you don't have the warrior...??

3) skills on your bar are optional, only the esc key is out of the skill bar, that makes the difference.

4) ping is important, but if a game only let player to play competitively in a low ping say perhaps 5ms to become competitive, then it is actually limiting the competitiveness, comparing 300-500 ms , and a 5 ms, mesmer...and if you say, then don't use interrupt.. meaning.. you are excluding part of the world to play mesmer, lead to lower population.....so skill infuse heal or interruption with fast casting time should be balance more on a average to high ping

5) is not just because of bringing anti skill so to promotes esc cancel skill, esc skill cancelling, has more other dynamics factor that can give to gw pvp, but the idea of bringing other anti skill, is not a dynamic factor that promote extra skill play that doesn't rely on skill bar.

6) gw war is competitive, but not a lan game, like sc, player can't play gw through lan.. so it is where it becomes limiting to the population...

1.) Yes. Yes I am. You seem to think that 5e skills are not viable for one reason or another.
2.) What happens if you're just sitting and skill cancelling and your opponent doesn't have a warrior? Same question.
3.) What?
4.) Everyone can play the game, regardless of ping. Unfortunately for anything competitive online, from trading stocks to competitive games, ping plays a big part. If it means that 90% of the world cannot play at the top level of play because of ping issues, so be it. If one cares enough to play at that said "top tier," there are various options available such as acquiring a T1 connection, and moving next-door to arenanet servers. However, with the current internet infrastructure, it is impossible to every single person to achieve a standard ping.
5.) The problem here is that you're trying to cover poor strategy with good tactics. It doesn't work. You don't bring a sword to a gun fight and expect to be able to outmaneuver your opponents and stabbity stab them to death. It just doesn't work that way.

6.) sucks for the population with bad ping.

lursey · Aug 02, 2011, 10:08 AM // 10:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reikai

1.) Yes. Yes I am. You seem to think that 5e skills are not viable for one reason or another.
2.) What happens if you're just sitting and skill cancelling and your opponent doesn't have a warrior? Same question.
3.) What?
4.) Everyone can play the game, regardless of ping. Unfortunately for anything competitive online, from trading stocks to competitive games, ping plays a big part. If it means that 90% of the world cannot play at the top level of play because of ping issues, so be it. If one cares enough to play at that said "top tier," there are various options available such as acquiring a T1 connection, and moving next-door to arenanet servers. However, with the current internet infrastructure, it is impossible to every single person to achieve a standard ping.
5.) The problem here is that you're trying to cover poor strategy with good tactics. It doesn't work. You don't bring a sword to a gun fight and expect to be able to outmaneuver your opponents and stabbity stab them to death. It just doesn't work that way.

6.) sucks for the population with bad ping.

1) then why do they have 10+en skills?
2) skill cancel expenses time if you keep skill cancelling
3) esc key is not one of your 8 skills on your bar...
4) same as your own 6) ... but if there is something can be put on the table to reduce that problem, then it is not that suck..

5).. no it is not bring a sword to a gun fight, because you are picking up a sword in the environment with a gun you holding in a gun fight, its different..

50% en return when you skill cancel.. bring something extra to the dynamics, plus with you may called "band-aid" effect to the interruption problem

Reikai · Aug 02, 2011, 10:51 AM // 10:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by lursey

1) then why do they have 10+en skills?
2) skill cancel expenses time if you keep skill cancelling
3) esc key is not one of your 8 skills on your bar...
4) same as your own 6) ... but if there is something can be put on the table to reduce that problem, then it is not that suck..

5).. no it is not bring a sword to a gun fight, because you are picking up a sword in the environment with a gun you holding in a gun fight, its different..

50% en return when you skill cancel.. bring something extra to the dynamics, plus with you may called "band-aid" effect to the interruption problem

1.) High risk, high reward.
2.) Skill cancel expends time. Watching a player to interrupt skills also expends time.
3.) What does that have to do with what was being discussed?
4.) Huh?
5.)

Quote:

no it is not bring a sword to a gun fight, because you are picking up a sword in the environment with a gun you holding in a gun fight, its different..

See this quote here goes to show you think skill canceling is a little trick that you and only you know how to do. That you are the master of skill canceling and that no one else knows how to do it.

Do not be so arrogant.

I will say again. You made a strategic choice not to bring an interrupt baiting/cancel skill. This is a poor strategic choice, ie: your sword.
You decide to bring this poorly made skillbar to a scene where interrupts are commonplace, ie: the gunfight.
You then complain that your pro tactics with the sword lose out in said gunfight, and you are now wanting to change the rules so that your opponents can only use said gun at point blank range?

Might as well play a hamstorm build, find it not to work too well, and then complain that the game mechanics are broken. After all, its supposed to be a deadly combination.

lursey · Aug 02, 2011, 11:37 AM // 11:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reikai

1.) High risk, high reward.
2.) Skill cancel expends time. Watching a player to interrupt skills also expends time.
3.) What does that have to do with what was being discussed?
4.) Huh?
5.)
See this quote here goes to show you think skill canceling is a little trick that you and only you know how to do. That you are the master of skill canceling and that no one else knows how to do it.

Do not be so arrogant.

I will say again. You made a strategic choice not to bring an interrupt baiting/cancel skill. This is a poor strategic choice, ie: your sword.
You decide to bring this poorly made skillbar to a scene where interrupts are commonplace, ie: the gunfight.
You then complain that your pro tactics with the sword lose out in said gunfight, and you are now wanting to change the rules so that your opponents can only use said gun at point blank range?

Might as well play a hamstorm build, find it not to work too well, and then complain that the game mechanics are broken. After all, its supposed to be a deadly combination.

2) watching a player expends time but not mana, skill canceling does expends mana+time.. double cost

3) interrupt is a skill, but it is optional that not everyone needs to or compulsorily have to bring, however esc is a button every class can use, and should be utilized more.

5) therefore, make it a 50 % en return, at least you give a chance for player to cast cancel more frequently, but not too much.... now is just too little, because the cost is too high for it...

is nothing related to interrupt or not, is about using what you got, like kiting, using maps, carrying a flag, weapon switching...

Reikai · Aug 02, 2011, 12:36 PM // 12:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by lursey

2) watching a player expends time but not mana, skill canceling does expends mana+time.. double cost

3) interrupt is a skill, but it is optional that not everyone needs to or compulsorily have to bring, however esc is a button every class can use, and should be utilized more.

5) therefore, make it a 50 % en return, at least you give a chance for player to cast cancel more frequently, but not too much.... now is just too little, because the cost is too high for it...

is nothing related to interrupt or not, is about using what you got, like kiting, using maps, carrying a flag, weapon switching...

2.) Watching a player means you're not spending mana, which also means that your mana is capped, and mana regen is wasted. In essence, watching a player also expends mana. Not so much real mana, as potential mana. Additionally, it can be done with signets with 0 manacost.

3.) All skills are optional, not something everyone needs to bring. Esc is a button every class can use. So what should we do? Have autoattack battles, or see who can spam the esc key the most?

5.) How much more frequently do you need to need to cast cancel than infinitely with a signet?

and a brain to know how to work out what to bring.

lursey · Aug 02, 2011, 12:45 PM // 12:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reikai

2.) Watching a player means you're not spending mana, which also means that your mana is capped, and mana regen is wasted. In essence, watching a player also expends mana. Not so much real mana, as potential mana. Additionally, it can be done with signets with 0 manacost.

3.) All skills are optional, not something everyone needs to bring. Esc is a button every class can use. So what should we do? Have autoattack battles, or see who can spam the esc key the most?

5.) How much more frequently do you need to need to cast cancel than infinitely with a signet?

and a brain to know how to work out what to bring.

2) watching a player, you actually has a choice to spend the potential en, but during skill cancelling, you don't have that choice.

50% mana return, that's what I want basically...

25en+25en shelter is 50 en if you cancel 2 times.....at least it is feasible to cast and gain recovery from 1 or 2 skill cancel

if only rely on skill.. might as well... kill all hoh maps, and objectives, reducing all dynamics....

a brain to use dynamics is better than a brain without using it.....

increasing dynamics in skill cancelling doesn't affect a brain to know what skill to bring

just like if skill cancelling is more feasible, you can still bring other skills to work with it... that means you are actually arguing on nothing...

ok so.. my bar can only contain.. 5en skills, signet skills....what else can I bring from so many skills, may as well song of concentration, gly of concentration?... you see the dynamics is lost because of interruption overpowering...

floor · Aug 05, 2011, 10:51 AM // 10:51

Interupts would become totally useless if players can just sit there and cancel 25 skills in a row, and not cost any energy. Shutdown is already used far less than it should be for such a well designed cool mechnanic, since considering how overpowered straight up damage characters are, you dont really need shutdown at all.

Seeing as damage already > shutdown in a lot of cases. Nerfing shutdown further, just reduces the already small pool of avaliable team builds even more.

Ofc interupts might seem overpowered atm, but to be totally honest, power creep of damage + healing means that even the super strong interupts available now, are still NOT GOOD ENOUGH to see widespread usage. Interupts dont need nerfing, at least not unless there is a major nerf to damage+Healing to go along side it.

OP's idea of 0 energy cancel casting is one of the worst ideas ive seen on this forum in a very long time. Even the argument about "rupting at key times" is totally irelevant, because as a monk, canceling a skill and then recasting it in order to fake out a rupt takes you like half a second, vs virtually any build this is no big deal at all, and if cancelling costs 0e, you would cancel at least once before casting every skill pretty much so you never got interupted unless you were extremely unlucky.

If that extra +0.5s is a problem and is causing you to die to spikes, then probably you should just be using infuse health anyway cos the spike was clean, and you cant interupt infuse on reflex...

The whole thought process behind the OP of this thread is just lols. Unless ofc this was aimed at PvE, it has absolutely no bearing on PvP at all other than just making interupts useless....